Statement on the New Assembly Building

The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities (Edwina Hart): Last June the Assembly voted to proceed with the building of the new debating chamber and committee rooms. It was a decision of the whole Assembly--[Conservative Assembly Members: No, it was not.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. The Minister has barely started.

Edwina Hart: The administration has been keen to carry out the Assembly’s wishes as quickly and as efficiently as possible. I am pleased to report that since last June we have made excellent progress. We remain on course to deliver a high quality building, on time and within total budget provision.

Janice Gregory rose--

The Presiding Officer: Order. Do you want to raise a point of order?

Janice Gregory: No, I would like to intervene if the Minister would allow me to do so.

The Presiding Officer: The Minister is making a statement. You may not intervene, but you will be called to ask a question later.

Edwina Hart: I know that you will welcome this news. Let me now take you through some of the developments that have occurred since last June. On 8 November, Cardiff City and County Council granted planning permission. The scheme has moved on from outline design stage and the formal scheme design has now been signed off. We have completed the legal formalities for the additional land required to enable the development to take place. We have appointed a specialist firm of access advisers to ensure that the needs of people with disabilities are taken into account at every stage of the detailed design process. We have also put in place an access advisory group. This comprises nominees proposed by Disability Wales, including representatives of the Disability Rights Commission.

The policy steering group has created an expert sub-group to advise on the place of the arts in and around the building. We have appointed our own independent quantity surveyor as recommended by the recent National Audit Office report on the Assembly’s accommodation. A full scale mock-up of the debating chamber and one committee room has been constructed. Arrangements are being made for Members to visit the mock-up in order to comment on the design. Last but not least, I am able to announce today the appointment of the management contractors who will be responsible for managing the construction. They will be active on site shortly.

I turn to the design changes. When the Assembly approved the scheme in June we were at outline design stage. Further work has been done since. The policy steering group recently signed off the formal scheme design that decides the fundamental nature, size and layout of the building. Much detailed design work is still to be done but that too is under way.

The scheme design introduced some changes to the earlier proposals. The most noticeable is that the number of large bells or funnels has been reduced from two to one. The bell over the debating chamber remains but there will not now be a bell over the public area. The architects think this is better visually and it will produce a more flexible and usable public space. That view is strongly shared by the policy steering group.

Other significant changes involve further improvements in accessibility and safety arrangements for those with disabilities. There will now be three disabled toilets available to the public compared with two in the outline design and they will be larger. There will be a much larger refuge area for use by wheelchair users in the case of emergency and a mechanical means of escape will be provided. While this is not a design change, the policy steering group has decided that we should try to set aside a room in the building for use as a quiet room for those with special needs.

The policy steering group strongly endorsed these improvements in facilities for those with disabilities and recognised that they represented an additional cost of about £200,000. We are committed to achieving exemplary standards of accessibility in the building. The policy steering group will continue to consider all proposals for improvement. One proposal that we have already considered is the provision of an additional lift from the roadway at the front of the building to the entrance level. That would have cost £160,000. The policy steering group felt that this proposal lacked the strength of the health and safety arguments attached to the other proposals and, given the level of costs involved, should not be pursued. However, we have asked the architects to ensure that the building is designed in a way that allows an additional lift to be installed should it ever be felt necessary. Updated scheme design plans are on display in the milling area this afternoon. Arrangements are also being made for this to be available on the internet.

The appointment of the management contractor is a major step forward. The company selected after open competition is Skanska Limited. It won the UK building contractor of the year nomination in 1999. They are extremely active within the Egan and the Movement for Innovation (M4i) initiative to improve many aspects of the work of the building industry. They have six demonstration sites in which they seek to improve risk management, environmental practices, whole life cycle costing, staff training, component standardisation and off-site fabrication. They also hold the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents Gold Award for occupational safety, which will be of interest to Members bearing in mind the discussions that we have had regarding building contractors and sites. They will work closely with the architect to ensure that the design can be built in the most efficient way. They will have a key role in tendering all sub-contractor packages, co-ordinating the timing of the work and managing the performance of sub-contractors on site.

I will explain our situation in terms of costs. As work has proceeded some cost pressures have arisen. A security review suggested that more must be spent on some aspects of the foundations to strengthen blast protection. The additional cost of about £300,000 has, however, been absorbed by savings arising from other design changes. The cost of the management contractor commission is about £470,000 above the original estimated provision. However, this too will be absorbed into the cost plan without recourse to the formal contingency provision of £3.5 million that I hold as Minister for Finance.

It has therefore not been necessary to draw on our contingency provision to date. Nevertheless, the results of the management contractor tendering process suggest we cannot rule out that possibility for the future. The first task of our newly appointed quantity surveyor will therefore be to carry out a further review of the cost plan, taking account of the latest available information on market conditions. Our present assessment is that it is likely that we will need to draw down some of the contingency provision but I am happy to state that we remain on course to deliver the building within the total budget provision set aside.

Let me outline the timetable for you. Service diversion works, which need to be done before construction, should start by mid-February. A formal ground breaking ceremony is planned for 1 March--a most appropriate date, as I am sure Members will agree. Construction work proper is expected to start in May. We remain on course for occupation by the Assembly in January 2003, as planned.

Cynog Dafis: I thank the Minister for Finance for her statement. I congratulate her and the team on the work that has been accomplished and on how she is leading this work. It has been a privilege to be a member of the small group that has been looking at the whole process.

Regarding the cost of the building, I welcome her statement of confidence that the project can be completed within the earmarked sum. It is good that some additional elements can be funded through savings. For example, the idea of taking out one of the two bells, resulting in less cost and an improvement in the standard of the building.

If we are to have a building in which we can take pride--and that must be so--it is reasonable that we may have to use some of the contingency provision. We shall see as things develop. I urge the Minister to ensure a disciplined approach to cost throughout.

I support the need for the Assembly to manage some of the land around the building, with regard to public enjoyment. That is as important as the building itself. I ask also how the new commercial building, which will be built next to the debating chamber, will affect the quality of that debating chamber?

I am pleased with the steps taken to ensure easy access for the disabled. Although some elements have been rejected on cost grounds, I am also pleased that it is possible to install an additional external lift if it is needed in future.

I especially welcome the intention to establish a group to advise on artwork, bearing in mind the recommendation in the ‘A Culture in Common’ report, which we discussed the day before yesterday, that the debating chamber, the whole building and the Assembly’s surroundings should be seen as an important space for all the arts.

I hope that a bold renewable energy scheme can be developed. That would give a strong signal to the industry in Wales that the Assembly supports it, and it would affirm our commitment to sustainable development.

I look forward to the turf-cutting ceremony on 1 March and the opening of the debating chamber in January 2003. Sticking to the proposed timetable is exceptionally important.

I am completely confident that the Richard Rogers building, our building, will be an object of pride, attracting visitors from far and near, and a contributing factor to uniting the whole nation in that sense of pride. It will be a huge boost to Cardiff as the gateway to the nation and the whole nation will benefit.

Will you join me in extending a warm welcome to the Welsh Conservatives to join with the rest of us in this work? There is no doubt that the Conservatives have an important contribution to make here to the political life of our nation and to the life of the Assembly. I can pay tribute to a number of things that the Conservatives have done in the Assembly’s work but it is a shame that they exclude themselves from this important work. This is a perfect example of social exclusion; the Conservatives are excluding themselves. It is a grave strategic error on their part, and they need to cast off their sin and return to the fold. We will all rejoice in receiving them. There will be rejoicing among God’s angels with every sinner that repents. We are the angels, they are the sinners. I want to see repentance from them now; more joy shall be over one sinner that repenteth than over ninety and nine just persons. Come back to the fold, boys.

Edwina Hart: I concur totally that the new building is source of pride for the National Assembly and for us as a nation. I would welcome it if the Welsh Conservatives reconsidered their decision and become part of the policy steering group. That would mean that all parties in this Chamber would be involved in the decision-making process.

I am delighted to have worked with the policy steering group, which includes you, Cynog, the Presiding Officer and Mike German. We dealt with the financial issues in a self-disciplined way. We were particularly conscious that we wanted our building in Wales to be a public building that comes in within budget. That would be quite an achievement. The management of the land is also important: we have been pleased with the co-operation that we have had from architects in a neighbouring building where they have tried to complement our building, allowing the full architectural strengths of our building to be seen in the bay.

The quality of the building leads into the issue of the arts. Art is not just an addition; art is an integral part of the life of Wales It is important that we have been innovative and invited people from across the field to be involved in advising us.

Sustainable development is important. The building itself is of the highest standard in terms of energy efficiency, but we are also exploring the wider issue of us in the bay and our energy provision. We could make partnership arrangements with others in the bay to consider energy issues. I hope that that can come out of our development.

I know that timetabling is difficult, although I have not worked for a rail company. However, I assure you that we will try to keep everybody’s noses to the grindstone. It will be significant if we can occupy the new building in January 2003, in plenty of time to start canvassing for the Assembly elections.

Janice Gregory: I thank Edwina and the steering group for their work, especially in ensuring that the building remains within budget. I am sure that, with Edwina’s hands on the purse strings, there is not much fear of the project exceeding its budget. Unfortunately, the leader of Bridgend County Borough Council, one Jeffrey Jones, is expounding a myth in my constituency, Ogmore, and the neighbouring constituency. He is a vociferous critic of the Assembly, which is surprising given that he tried so hard to become a Member. He has stated publicly in the local press that the new building--or ‘glass menagerie’, as he calls it--will cost the Welsh nation £41 million. Will you give us the truth?

Edwina Hart: The new building is on target to be delivered within the budget provision. There is £23.2 million, plus the 15 per cent contingency allowance, which brings the total budget provision to £26.6 million. I agree with Janice that some of the attacks on the Assembly are not based on principle but almost the result of political envy. We are all privileged to be the first 60 Assembly Members. I am sure that we are all delighted to be part and parcel of the National Assembly. I will be privileged to be part of history in the making when we move into our new building. Political envy is not a good basis on which to discuss the principled decisions that we try to make in the National Assembly.

Alun Cairns: I thank the Minister for her statement. However, is this not the first of many statements that we can expect on the new Assembly building, reflecting increased costs time and time again? I must correct the Minister on her opening remarks, when she stated that having a new Assembly building was

a decision of the whole Assembly’.

The Welsh Conservative Party, along with one or two Labour Members, had nothing to do with the new Assembly building. I reassure Cynog Dafis that we will have nothing to do with the design or the building of it. However, to pick up the point the Minister made in response to Janice Gregory, the Welsh Conservatives’ attack on the building is not an attack on the Assembly.

This is a statement of smoke and mirrors and reflects the increased costs of the new Assembly building. We are told that we remain on course to deliver a building

‘on time and within total budget provision’.

We should not forget that this is a much-increased total budget provision to that originally promised. The Minister then stated:

‘as work has proceeded some cost pressures have arisen’.

Then there was a new smokescreen:

‘the additional cost of about £300,000 has, however, been absorbed by savings arising from other design changes’

The Minister then stated that

‘the cost of the management contractor commission is about £470,000 above the original estimated cost. However, this too will be absorbed into the cost plan’.

Should not any savings arising from design changes be passed on to the Welsh taxpayer? They should be given to people who use the health service and the education system.

The cat was let out of the bag later on, when the Minister said,

‘nevertheless, the results of the management contractor tendering process suggest we cannot rule out that possibility for the future’.

And, later on, the Minister underlined clearly that, under the present assessment,

‘it is likely that we will need to draw down some of the contingency’.

Is not the cost rising time and time again? I understand that the independent quantity surveyor’s first responsibility will be to review costs and designs yet again. When will we have the outcome of those costs and design changes? When will Edwina be honest and, once and for all, admit that this cost is ballooning out of all proportion?

Edwina Hart: The smoke and mirrors are being used on your side. Judging from your understanding of my statement, I am better at dealing with money than you are. I have made it clear, as has the team, that we vigorously tried to keep within budget throughout this process. If that meant taking down certain specifications on designs to keep within the budget, I have done that all the way through the process. This is an exceptionally honest statement, illustrating the difficulties and pressures that arise when you are dealing with a building and trying to keep it within a ballpark figure. I have been upfront about contingency arrangements and the fact that I included a contingency allowance. That is good management. Good management means--as you know--

David Melding: Desperation

Edwina Hart: There is no desperation in this because I do not get desperate about such matters. You play hardball, you bargain hard and you try to ensure that you keep within the budget provision. I am not saying that that is easy, but with the support of my group, and given that the majority of the Assembly are supportive of the building project, I am sure that we will have something that the people of Wales will understand. These cheap political points that you choose to make, Alun, do not help anybody. We made a decision on the Assembly building. It was a democratic decision taken by the majority of this Assembly. The price we pay for democracy is that we accept democratic decisions. This is ongoing. You can jibe about spending £200,000 on disability access and such matters. You carry on, Alun. People will not respect you for it. This is about our building, our future, the future of our nation and how democracy evolves in Wales. That is how I see it and that is how I believe that the people of Wales and the majority of Members in this Chamber see it.

Delyth Evans: What measures are being taken to ensure that, wherever possible, materials made in Wales are being used in the building’s construction? What is being done to ensure that the sustainable aspect of the building, such as the use of solar energy panels remains central to the detailed development of the design?

Edwina Hart: The sustainable development aspects are key issues for us and we spend a considerable time discussing that in the group to see how we can make the best use of them. In fact, we discuss issues such as what will happen to rainwater in the new building, how it will be circulated through and used in our lavatories and so on, and using cold water to wash our hands because that is better for the environment. Those issues are part and parcel of the process. I alluded to our concerns about how we will obtain energy in the building. We will perhaps look at innovative projects involving the bay, wind farms and so on.

On Welsh materials, procurement issues arise in relation to that. We are considering positively ways of ensuring that Welsh materials are used in this building. There is an issue of what materials you want to use. We have discussed the use of wood in the building and using Welsh wood and involving Coed Cymru in discussions. That has all been exceptionally positive. That is the route that we are taking. On the updating of this, because this is an ongoing process and the group meets every month, I intend to put regular reports on the website--when it is up and running--to update Members on such issues. If Members want to ask questions about progress, all Members can then have the answers. As Members are interested in this aspect, as soon as we have any further information, we will provide an update on the intranet.

Janet Davies: I thank you for your announcement today and for your strong efforts to keep costs in line. As Chair of the Audit Committee, I am pleased that you are following the recommendations made by the Audit Committee after its hearing last November. As a South Wales West Member, I raise an issue that relates to my consituency. When the Cardiff and Swansea options were first compared in 1998, no economic appraisal was made of staff time travelling costs, only the cost of the coach to Swansea. In April of last year, following Welsh Conservative demands, an appraisal was made of the costs incurred as a result of staff travelling between Cathays Park and the bay. It was said that it would be £2.9 million annually. Following the Audit Committee hearing last November, a similar economic appraisal was made for Swansea that amounted to £9 million annually. In the Audit Committee hearing, it became apparent that Swansea had been misled because, politically, this building had to be in Cardiff. No full economic appraisal was made of staff time travelling costs to Swansea then. It is now clear to me and to most people--if they use their sense--that Cardiff Bay is the most effective location for the building, economically and politically. However, do you understand that considerable damage has been done to the National Assembly’s reputation in the Swansea area--Janice Gregory mentioned having a similar experience in the Ogmore area--by the handling of these options? Do you agree that having democracy in Wales has made an enormous difference to bringing this kind of issue out into the open and making explanations clear?

11:05 a.m.

Edwina Hart: I agree with your comments on democracy in Wales and that we have open discussions on these issues. We are talking about history here. The First Minister’s decision to stop and think was correct. When we look back, I have no doubt that when I read the South Wales Evening Post, as other Members do, there was considerable concern in Swansea about the money that was spent in considering the bids. That is also true for other parts of Wales that were asked to consider whether they could offer viable alternative options to Cardiff.

We have made the right decision on the National Assembly’s location. I was not a politician at the time of that decision. If it had been up to me, even as a Swansea politician, I would have chosen Cardiff, because it is the nation’s capital. However, we must make ourselves more accessible to the rest of the nation. Our building and Assembly Chamber might be in Cardiff, but it is incumbent on us all to consider how the Assembly operates outside Cardiff, what organisations we might consider locating elsewhere, and what other buildings, offices and so on, the Assembly might use across Wales in due course. This building is the symbol of the Assembly. However, the whole point is that this building is for all the people of Wales, and they must all feel a part of it. That growing up process will involve us considering where we are and where we have other options.

Lorraine Barrett: I do not want to comment on the hypocrisy on the Conservative side of the Chamber. However, privately, various Conservative Members tell me that they will enjoy the building once it is there, but that they have to play this game. [Assembly Members: ‘Name names.’] I will not divulge private conversations. However, it is a shame that the Conservatives will not take part in these serious discussions. The building will be built. It is going ahead. There is no point rehearsing the argument for or against it. We are losing out in not having David Melding’s expertise in equal opportunities. Disability groups are losing out by him not being included in discussions. I am serious about this, David, and I know that it will get you into trouble with the rest of your group. You make valid and serious contributions to the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. I wish that the Conservatives would rethink their tactics.

Cynog Dafis, you said it all. The new building has been described to me as the new Jerusalem. It will be a building for everyone. It is not just for Members to sit in and pontificate and discuss. It is for people from all around the world--from Wales and Europe, America and Australia. Many visitors have already been here, but what do they feel when they come along? They come to the bay and ask, hang on, where is the new Government of Wales building; I must get through a revolving door, what will they say if I go in there, can I go in there? They hesitantly walk in, and are then welcomed by the ushers and staff, but they are still not quite sure whether they can come in--

David Davies: Where are they?

The Presiding Officer: Order. This is a question on a statement. You cannot intervene. I might have called you to speak.

Lorraine Barrett: We do not want a Westminster-style building with all its pomp and ceremony. I have a question about accessibility for all, Edwina, particularly the hard of hearing and those with hearing impairments. Rosemary mentioned this earlier. I have a hearing impairment and we must get the acoustics in the new building right. At some point as the project develops, could we have an informal briefing on disability issues to see how they are being addressed? That would be appreciated by everyone. Disability Wales is involved with the project’s development, but can we pay attention to hearing impairment and ensure that the groups representing the hearing impaired are involved at the crucial stage? On temperatures, in this building at present, you can grow tomatoes in one part and freeze ice cubes in another. I do not know what the problem is, but can we ensure that that is also addressed?

Edwina Hart: We have an access group that advises us on these issues. The acoustics of the new building is crucial. We have found throughout our discussions that water and the impact of glass effects the acoustics. We have had to consider these issues in some detail, and I would be pleased to brief Members on progress. It is on our agenda. However, this is about everyone, not just wheelchair users. It is also about carpets, flooring, where lines should be provided so that people know that a wall is there, glass, and guide dogs. There are numerous considerations. We have sought proper advice on this and, as a result, I hope that ours will be a model building. When these matters have progressed within the group, I will supply a briefing for Members, with the help of the architects. When Members visit the mock-up of the Chamber, they will see the amount of time and effort invested in considering accessibility. For example, in entering or leaving the Chamber, a wheelchair user will be able to pass the Cabinet’s row of seats. I am sure that Members will be interested to see how we have dealt with accessibility.

Rod Richards: I will first respond to Cynog Dafis’s call for some Members on this side of the Chamber to come over to join the angels. I remind him of Jesus’s words,

‘Two men went up into the temple to pray.’

One was a Pharisee--from Plaid Cymru--and the other an independent Tory publican. You will remember that the Pharisee thanked the Lord that he was not like the independent Tory, who was excluded and who rejected the temple. You will also remember that it was the independent Tory who was justified by God, not the Pharisee or the angels.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: After he had asked for forgiveness.

Rod Richards: There is another preacher here.

The Presiding Officer: Order. We have heard enough theology for today.

Rod Richards: Those of us whose offices overlook the ghastly sight where this outrageous waste of money will be located will have to look at it being built brick by brick. The only part of the Minister’s statement that I welcome--and I mean this most sincerely--is the completion date of January 2003. That will be a timely reminder to voters in Wales for whom they should be voting in the Assembly elections in May that year.

Edwina Hart: Seeing the building up and running will be a timely reminder to voters in Gower to vote for me.

Peter Black: I am more than happy to exchange offices with Rod if he does not wish to look at the building site. I am sure that his former colleagues in the Welsh Conservatives would welcome that move.

I welcome this statement as it is important that we have regular updates. I particularly welcome the comments on energy provision and the use of Welsh materials. It is important that we use sustainable sources of energy, such as solar panels, if possible, and wind power. I also welcome the fact that the building will be as energy efficient as possible, possibly more so than any other building in Wales. Will Edwina consider using electricity and other types of energy supplied by companies who solely rely on sustainable energy sources, for the new building, as well as for the Assembly’s other offices?

Edwina Hart: I am happy to consider all the points raised. Due to the interest shown in the energy aspect, I will submit a note for Assembly Members outlining the current position. Things have changed, and we are considering what is still a movable feast. I will confirm the situation in due course.

Glyn Davies: First Minister, there can be no doubt in anyone’s mind--sorry, I am being a little premature in describing you as First Minister--Minister for Finance, there can be no doubt in anyone’s mind that the Welsh Conservative group has always been and remains totally opposed to the new building. It is a mistake and we have done everything that we can to stop it from going ahead. I have played a role in this by trying to activate people to join us in our view. That has proven to be successful throughout Wales and a vast majority agrees with our position. At one stage, I thought that I had persuaded the First Minister to join us. If he was not a man so prone to dithering, he may well have led his party into our camp on this issue.

11:15 a.m.

Our opposition was always based on the fact that the money could have been better spent to provide public services for the people of Wales, and that they would have preferred us to do that. Not only was our opposition total, but it was specifically about the fact that what we were doing was premature. The first thing that we should have done was to consider issues that impacted on the people of Wales. When they were happy with the Assembly, then they might have been satisfied with us building a new building.

On Cynog’s point--

The Presiding Officer: Order. Glyn, this is not a debate. We have spent over 30 minutes on this statement. I have been extremely generous today. As Members know, I have to be good tempered on Thursday mornings.

Glyn Davies: I would never want to test your good temper, Llywydd.

We need every detail on any cost increases and we will continue to ask written and oral questions on every aspect of this new building. I want Edwina’s assurance that disabled people will be able to access the new building through the front door without having to use any mechanical means. Anything else is completely unacceptable. Do you agree that having spent around £30 million on the new building, and after it is completed, we will have to justify such a huge waste of public money?

Edwina Hart: First, I will address the real questions. On disabled access, there is an access advisory group that consults us on all access-related issues. I will not pre-empt those discussions among users nor their advice on access. However, the group’s advice will be satisfactory. The Disability Rights Commission and Disability Wales are also involved and I will focus on that issue.

You can ask as many questions as you wish, because I have nothing to fear in giving you detailed answers. The beauty of devolution and a democratic system in Wales is that you can ask these questions and get answers and full and regular reports on what goes on. I do not concur with your comments on the new building being a huge waste of money and a mistake. On your cheeky remarks on the ‘dithering’ of the First Minister, there was no dithering. We tried to make a proper grown-up decision by looking at the budgets and the needs and requirements. Politics is about principles. The Welsh Conservative group probably does not understand that word. It is ironic that the words ‘public services’ should emanate from your lips given that your group is only concerned about populism.

Politics is about making a principled decision, taking democracy forward in Wales and having the building in which to do so; realising that we are a grown-up nation in this new century, which talks with Europe and undertakes many issues. The griping must stop. If the Conservatives are genuinely concerned about scrutinising the project’s costs and playing a part in the process, they should join our committee and behave like adults.